GAME DISCUSSION THREAD

[Robviously]

I think Leopold has been pretty good -- he's been 1st or 2nd in ice time during the Sabres' recent winning streak -- and Niedermayer has been solid. Morrisonn has been a bit of a letdown but it's still pretty early.

Niedermayer looks like he should have retired. We're almost a quarter through the season and he has zero goals and 5 assists, on his way to a -2. Morrisonn is a -8 with 1 assist. We definitely didn't get better through free agency last summer and I honestly can't remember the last time the Sabres signed an impact free agent. (I don't count Spacek.)

 

The most likely scenario for a better Sabres roster next season comes from adding Luke Adam and Zack Kassian up front and then hoping Weber, Shiestel, and/or Brennan is ready to be a full-time NHL defenseman.

[Patty16]

Coming off years where he had 70-80 points, It's prolly right on. And who's to say they weren't competing with other teams at that point. He'll come around, no worries. His salary isn't in the way of anything right now so my panties aren't in a bunch (prolly cause I'm not wearing any).

 

 

He had one year of 80 points which put him in 7th spot for his position. He hasnt been in the top 10 for his position since or before. He had a good contract year for sure.

 

I dont lose sleep over it, but it does handcuff the team when you overpay for a play like him. Pommers wasnt talking to other teams because his current contract was an extension, so it would be against CBA to do so. And he was in line to be a RFA anyway so the Sabres back wasnt against the wall because he wouldnt have hit the open market.

 

Dont get me wrong hes a good player and puts up points. I just think, and the stats show, that we overpaid for him.

 

There are plenty of other RWs who make less and do more, now whether we could have acquired them is a different story. Perhaps that was the thinking.

[korab rules]

He had one year of 80 points which put him in 7th spot for his position. He hasnt been in the top 10 for his position since or before. He had a good contract year for sure.

 

I dont lose sleep over it, but it does handcuff the team when you overpay for a play like him. Pommers wasnt talking to other teams because his current contract was an extension, so it would be against CBA to do so. And he was in line to be a RFA anyway so the Sabres back wasnt against the wall because he wouldnt have hit the open market.

 

Dont get me wrong hes a good player and puts up points. I just think, and the stats show, that we overpaid for him.

 

There are plenty of other RWs who make less and do more, now whether we could have acquired them is a different story. Perhaps that was the thinking.

 

Pommer is overpaid by 1-1.5 mil. Goose is overpaid by 1 mil. Hecht is overpaid by .5 mil. Take that 2.5-3 mil, add it to connolly's 4.5 mil and you have Patrick Marleau. You can live with one bad contract, but multiple bad contracts are the difference between pretenders and contenders.

[nfreeman]

He had one year of 80 points which put him in 7th spot for his position. He hasnt been in the top 10 for his position since or before. He had a good contract year for sure.

 

I dont lose sleep over it, but it does handcuff the team when you overpay for a play like him. Pommers wasnt talking to other teams because his current contract was an extension, so it would be against CBA to do so. And he was in line to be a RFA anyway so the Sabres back wasnt against the wall because he wouldnt have hit the open market.

 

Dont get me wrong hes a good player and puts up points. I just think, and the stats show, that we overpaid for him.

 

There are plenty of other RWs who make less and do more, now whether we could have acquired them is a different story. Perhaps that was the thinking.

I also think there's another intangible detriment when a guy making that much isn't productive -- the other guys, who all know what everyone makes, see their alleged best players take one invisible shift after another and subconsciously say to themselves "if [highly-paid player X] isn't producing, that means I don't need to either." That's a bit of an oversimplification, but I do think some air is let out of the balloon when the alleged studs are ineffective.

[Patty16]

Pommer is overpaid by 1-1.5 mil. Goose is overpaid by 1 mil. Hecht is overpaid by .5 mil. Take that 2.5-3 mil, add it to connolly's 4.5 mil and you have Patrick Marleau. You can live with one bad contract, but multiple bad contracts are the difference between pretenders and contenders.

 

Bingo. Connollys is a little more difficult bc other than this year the production has been there.

 

Contracts are set by the market. Pommers was never gonna hit the open market and we overpaid. Granted on any team you will have a few players that are overpaid, any team does, even with a great GM. Missing by a lot, like pommers is what hurts, its not wade redden/dipietro bad but its bad.

 

Vanek is there too to some degree.

 

I also think there's another intangible detriment when a guy making that much isn't productive -- the other guys, who all know what everyone makes, see their alleged best players take one invisible shift after another and subconsciously say to themselves "if [highly-paid player X] isn't producing, that means I don't need to either." That's a bit of an oversimplification, but I do think some air is let out of the balloon when the alleged studs are ineffective.

 

Yes.

[MattPie]

He had one year of 80 points which put him in 7th spot for his position. He hasnt been in the top 10 for his position since or before. He had a good contract year for sure.

 

Pomminstein's primary value isn't only in points. Can the 6 above him play any defence or are they all Kovalchuks? (I don't really know)

 

His salary isn't in the way of anything right now so my panties aren't in a bunch (prolly cause I'm not wearing any).

 

Heh, nicely done.

[Patty16]

Pomminstein's primary value isn't only in points. Can the 6 above him play any defence or are they all Kovalchuks? (I don't really know)

 

 

 

Heh, nicely done.

 

I dont know about defense, but Pommers the last few seasons has been in the mid teens for RWs in terms of scoring. To pay him as a top 6 RW guy thats a lot of defense.

 

He's good defensively but no one will mistake him for a Selke trophy candidate.

[Robviously]

I also think there's another intangible detriment when a guy making that much isn't productive -- the other guys, who all know what everyone makes, see their alleged best players take one invisible shift after another and subconsciously say to themselves "if [highly-paid player X] isn't producing, that means I don't need to either." That's a bit of an oversimplification, but I do think some air is let out of the balloon when the alleged studs are ineffective.

Pick your poison. The locker room isn't going to be thrilled if the team never gives out any big contracts either. Pominville had a great season and was rewarded for it with a big contract. That's probably good for the locker room mentally. I don't think there would be a good vibe playing for a team that doesn't give out big contracts to keep its own players. And I don't think free agents would be more likely to sign here if that was the case either.

 

There will always be anomalies in every sport where the guy having the best season on a team is not the guy being paid the most money that year. That's just the way it is. Myers was probably our MVP last year on an entry-level contract.

[nfreeman]

Pick your poison. The locker room isn't going to be thrilled if the team never gives out any big contracts either. Pominville had a great season and was rewarded for it with a big contract. That's probably good for the locker room mentally. I don't think there would be a good vibe playing for a team that doesn't give out big contracts to keep its own players. And I don't think free agents would be more likely to sign here if that was the case either.

 

There will always be anomalies in every sport where the guy having the best season on a team is not the guy being paid the most money that year. That's just the way it is. Myers was probably our MVP last year on an entry-level contract.

This is a good point, and certainly at the time he signed his deal, the Sabres' management needed to stop the bleeding and make it clear to everyone that they were prepared to pay to keep their good veteran players. (Of course, by then the real horses had already left the barn.) In that sense, Pommer and Hecht (and probably Gaustad, although I think his deal isn't nearly as egregious as the other 2) were in the right place at the right time. They certainly can't be blamed for scooping up a windfall.

 

Moreover, Pommer is a good 2-way player with good hockey IQ and he seems like a good guy. I just want more out of him, especially in crunch time (and that goes for his linemates as well).

[korab rules]

This is a good point, and certainly at the time he signed his deal, the Sabres' management needed to stop the bleeding and make it clear to everyone that they were prepared to pay to keep their good veteran players. (Of course, by then the real horses had already left the barn.) In that sense, Pommer and Hecht (and probably Gaustad, although I think his deal isn't nearly as egregious as the other 2) were in the right place at the right time. They certainly can't be blamed for scooping up a windfall.

 

Moreover, Pommer is a good 2-way player with good hockey IQ and he seems like a good guy. I just want more out of him, especially in crunch time (and that goes for his linemates as well).

 

Really? In a way, I think Goose's contract is the worst. He has to be the highest paid fourth line center in the league. I think Goose should be getting half of his actual salary. Pommer and Hecht, on the other hand, should be getting 2/3 of their current contract. For all the bitching people do about Connolly, it's not a bad contract if he stays healthy.

[Eleven]

Coming off years where he had 70-80 points, It's prolly right on. And who's to say they weren't competing with other teams at that point. He'll come around, no worries. His salary isn't in the way of anything right now so my panties aren't in a bunch (prolly cause I'm not wearing any).

 

 

Can you imagine the OSP complaints if he had signed elsewhere for 5.2M?

[nfreeman]

Really? In a way, I think Goose's contract is the worst. He has to be the highest paid fourth line center in the league. I think Goose should be getting half of his actual salary. Pommer and Hecht, on the other hand, should be getting 2/3 of their current contract. For all the bitching people do about Connolly, it's not a bad contract if he stays healthy.

 

I don't disagree about Gaustad making too much, but I think Pommer and Hecht are also each making about double what they should be making. And before everyone starts in again about Pommer's numbers, I will say again that if he doesn't bring it in the playoffs, and he absolutely failed to do so last year, I don't give much of a hoot about 62 pts in the regular season.

 

Back to Gaustad: he might be overpaid by $1MM or so. But it's only for one more year. Pommer is overpaid by $2.5MM or so for another 3 years after this one.

[Robviously]

Really? In a way, I think Goose's contract is the worst. He has to be the highest paid fourth line center in the league. I think Goose should be getting half of his actual salary. Pommer and Hecht, on the other hand, should be getting 2/3 of their current contract. For all the bitching people do about Connolly, it's not a bad contract if he stays healthy.

Gaustad is one of the most frustrating players on the team because even when he's not scoring (like now), he could make a big impact for our team by just picking fights and dropping the gloves every now and then. He used to fight and he was good at it. Now he doesn't even bother. If he's not going to score goals, he should do something else out there. The best we get now is that he'll maybe shove someone after the whistle with a blank look on his face.

 

We're really getting nothing out of him at this point.

[Calvin]

His salary isn't in the way of anything right now so my panties aren't in a bunch (prolly cause I'm not wearing any).

sigh.. oh chz.. :wub:

[Calvin]

Pommer is overpaid by 1-1.5 mil. Goose is overpaid by 1 mil. Hecht is overpaid by .5 mil. Take that 2.5-3 mil, add it to connolly's 4.5 mil and you have Patrick Marleau.

right. cos Marleau really wanted to come here but salary was a sticking point. he must have really been looking forward to Roy being his setup man, who needs that Thronton fella anyways?

[spndnchz]

Pommer is overpaid by 1-1.5 mil. Goose is overpaid by 1 mil. Hecht is overpaid by .5 mil. Take that 2.5-3 mil, add it to connolly's 4.5 mil and you have Patrick Marleau. You can live with one bad contract, but multiple bad contracts are the difference between pretenders and contenders.

 

Maybe a Marleau type, but not the Marleau. He wanted to stay in SJ pretty bad. IIRC I posted some stuff in the Free agent frenzy thread about it.

[korab rules]

right. cos Marleau really wanted to come here but salary was a sticking point. he must have really been looking forward to Roy being his setup man, who needs that Thronton fella anyways?

 

Why do you think Darcy prefers to trade? Marleau wasn't the point of the post. Fill in the blank with the name of your favorite seven million dollar player. Point is, you can't spend your money on real talent when you are wasting it by overpaying the guys on your team.

 

The successful teams in the salary cap era are paying a bunch of money to a few premier players on their teams and peanuts to middle tier vets and young guys. We are paying premier money to miller and vanek, and way too much for our middle tier talent.

[Calvin]

The successful teams in the salary cap era are paying a bunch of money to a few premier players on their teams and peanuts to middle tier vets and young guys.

That's really working out well for the Devils I heard

[spndnchz]

Why do you think Darcy prefers to trade? Marleau wasn't the point of the post. Fill in the blank with the name of your favorite seven million dollar player. Point is, you can't spend your money on real talent when you are wasting it by overpaying the guys on your team.

 

The successful teams in the salary cap era are paying a bunch of money to a few premier players on their teams and peanuts to middle tier vets and young guys. We are paying premier money to miller and vanek, and way too much for our middle tier talent.

 

I don't see a big diff between us and others here. Some teams like Chicago got lucky to hit it big in the draft and didn't have to pay the big money till now, and now that team is gone.

 

It's a mix of spending a crapload on big talent at the right time. Like this year or next, before you have to pay Myers and after you drop UFA's this year. IMHO. If I would say what DR's problem is it's holding onto everyone when only a few should stay. It's made the team deep in talent but not deep on the ice talent.

[korab rules]

That's really working out well for the Devils I heard

 

I said the successful teams are doing it. I didn't say that all teams that do it are successful. As we are acutely aware, its who you spend the money on, not how much you spend.

 

I don't see a big diff between us and others here. Some teams like Chicago got lucky to hit it big in the draft and didn't have to pay the big money till now, and now that team is gone.

 

It's a mix of spending a crapload on big talent at the right time. Like this year or next, before you have to pay Myers and after you drop UFA's this year. IMHO. If I would say what DR's problem is it's holding onto everyone when only a few should stay. It's made the team deep in talent but not deep on the ice talent.

 

 

The sabres, as in all things, are doing a half assed, junior varsity version of it. They have a decent contract with Miller, but were forced to overpay for Vanek. While we are paying elite money to Vanek, he has not produced of late like an elite player. We have a great contract with Roy which will look even better if he continues to play at the pace he is now, but then we screw the pooch with pommers, hecht and goose. What Darcy has done is collect a bunch of middle tier talent, but chosen to overpay for it. Miller is the only truly elite player we have, but its at a position where elite play isn't required to go deep in the playoffs. Then we have vanek, who is sub elite but paid like he is elite.

[nobody]

I don't see a big diff between us and others here. Some teams like Chicago got lucky to hit it big in the draft and didn't have to pay the big money till now, and now that team is gone.

 

It's a mix of spending a crapload on big talent at the right time. Like this year or next, before you have to pay Myers and after you drop UFA's this year. IMHO. If I would say what DR's problem is it's holding onto everyone when only a few should stay. It's made the team deep in talent but not deep on the ice talent.

 

 

Agree with all of this.

[nobody]

but then we screw the pooch with pommers, hecht and goose. What Darcy has done is collect a bunch of middle tier talent, but chosen to overpay for it.

 

 

I have no problem with the Vanek salary. But as you say - Darcy screwed the pooch on a few too many others.