The Miller signing is nice, but...........

[VJF59]

I don't think it's reasonable to say Miller is young, or one of the best (unless the "best" pool has 10 or 15 goalies in it). Sorry.

 

And I'm not fired up. You won't like me when I'm angry. Ask BM.

 

I must ask, do you really think 28 is that old? First of all, hockey players, even goalies, tend to play longer then most other pro athletes. Secondly, young goalies hardly ever start out great, and stay great. Young goalies may have one or two great seasons, and then we find them not even being able to keep their starting jobs in their third seasons. I'm glad Miller is past that stage. But I have to stand corrected on my best goalie stance for Miller. Looking at his stats from last season, he finished 24th in goals against and 29th in save percentage. His wins are what saved him. I guess I was so shocked the Sabres signed him to such a great deal, I was clouded as to how badly he really played last year. All sarcasm aside, as a Sabres fan, I hope Ryan is finally ready to become that elite goalie we all think he can be.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I must ask, do you really think 28 is that old? First of all, hockey players, even goalies, tend to play longer then most other pro athletes. Secondly, young goalies hardly ever start out great, and stay great. Young goalies may have one or two great seasons, and then we find them not even being able to keep their starting jobs in their third seasons. I'm glad Miller is past that stage. But I have to stand corrected on my best goalie stance for Miller. Looking at his stats from last season, he finished 24th in goals against and 29th in save percentage. His wins are what saved him. I guess I was so shocked the Sabres signed him to such a great deal, I was clouded as to how badly he really played last year. All sarcasm aside, as a Sabres fan, I hope Ryan is finally ready to become that elite goalie we all think he can be.

 

Funny thing is, Kiprusoff makes even more money, quite a bit more at the moment with Miller still on his old deal, and his numbers were almost identical to Miller's - 76 GP, 2.69, .906 ... so he also struggled a bit with the workload, I would say. And that was in a division where only 1 team scored more than 231 goals, and that was Edmonton at 235. In the NE division, only Boston scored less than 231, and Ottawa and Montreal were in the top 5 in goals scored. So Miller was also playing against more powerful offensive teams more often.

I am NOT suggesting he is better than Kiprusoff or deserves a pass for last season, he needs to be much better and play like he did the previous two seasons at least. But given Kiprusoff's numbers, maybe there is more to the workload issue than I thought.

[X. Benedict]

You won't like me when I'm angry.

 

.....reports of large green man in purple trunks in the border area of Northern PA......

[PASabreFan]

.....reports of large green man in purple trunks in the border area of Northern PA......

 

Sasquatch again!?

[Bmwolf21]

I don't know what they practiced last off-season, but it also seemed like the way he played one-on-ones changed from the 2006-07 season. By the end of last year, despite looking a bit worn out, I thought he started to correct some of those changes and was handling one-on-ones better. Was it just my imagination or did anyone else notice this?

I thought so, too. The highlight was the shootout against Toronto (the night before they were eliminated from postseason contention) when he stopped 5/6 in the shootout to keep his team in it (while our shooters fumbled around like blind squirrels) until Max finally won the game.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to say Miller is young, or one of the best (unless the "best" pool has 10 or 15 goalies in it). Sorry.

 

And I'm not fired up. You won't like me when I'm angry. Ask BM.

All bark, no bite. :nana:

 

Hey BTP, ever notice how Miller goes to his knees a lot (maybe just one knee -- I'm trying to envision it) when the play is behind the net? It always makes me nervous.

Actually, I also recall Biron doing it, and Noronen as well. I'd guess that it's a technique that Corsi believes in and tries to install in his goalies.

 

Funny thing is, Kiprusoff makes even more money, quite a bit more at the moment with Miller still on his old deal, and his numbers were almost identical to Miller's - 76 GP, 2.69, .906 ... so he also struggled a bit with the workload, I would say. And that was in a division where only 1 team scored more than 231 goals, and that was Edmonton at 235. In the NE division, only Boston scored less than 231, and Ottawa and Montreal were in the top 5 in goals scored. So Miller was also playing against more powerful offensive teams more often.

I am NOT suggesting he is better than Kiprusoff or deserves a pass for last season, he needs to be much better and play like he did the previous two seasons at least. But given Kiprusoff's numbers, maybe there is more to the workload issue than I thought.

Good post, BtP. I believe the workload is a huge issue - not just for Ryan, but for Kiprusoff and most goalies. Outside of the number of GP (T-2nd in the league with 76) he was second in total TOI (4,474:18) and second in shots against (2104.) The other thing is those numbers don't take into account the quality of shots faced - Brodeur faced 2089 but I'd bet my car that the vast majority of his SA were lower-quality shots from the perimeter while Ryan and other goalies in the same SA neighborhood face more quality scoring chances.

[Taro T]

I thought so, too. The highlight was the shootout against Toronto (the night before they were eliminated from postseason contention) when he stopped 5/6 in the shootout to keep his team in it (while our shooters fumbled around like blind squirrels) until Max finally won the game.

All bark, no bite. :nana:

Actually, I also recall Biron doing it, and Noronen as well. I'd guess that it's a technique that Corsi believes in and tries to install in his goalies.

Good post, BtP. I believe the workload is a huge issue - not just for Ryan, but for Kiprusoff and most goalies. Outside of the number of GP (T-2nd in the league with 76) he was second in total TOI (4,474:18) and second in shots against (2104.) The other thing is those numbers don't take into account the quality of shots faced - Brodeur faced 2089 but I'd bet my car that the vast majority of his SA were lower-quality shots from the perimeter while Ryan and other goalies in the same SA neighborhood face more quality scoring chances.

Good observation. Corsi teaches using a paddle-down, leg straight 1/2 butterfly for tracking plays behind the net (w/ the stick initially in the passing lane); probably because that takes away the near post and everything low which is where a shooter on the wrap-around is most likely to shoot for.

 

And workload definitely appears to be an issue for all goalies (not named Brodeur), so I would definitely like to see LaLame, er, LaLime (sorry, old habits die hard :o ) get 20-27 games this year.

[cdexchange]

ever notice how Miller goes to his knees a lot

 

 

ummm...Ink, where are you? :D :D :D

[The Brain]

The players having dealt with last year alone should make the team better.

 

It was pretty much the first time any of them had experienced failure.

Failure won't make players better.

Do you think for example Gaustad will become a finisher next year because he has been a failure at it for 3 years ?

I don't.

Do you think Miller will steal games for the team in the fashion of a Hasek or Brodeur next year because he gave up a ton of soft ones in close games last year.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

I remember at this time last year the fans 'reasoning' that the team will be better without Breire and Drury.

The 'logic' of the day was..."we didn't win it with them so we'll probably be better without them".

 

No their failures of last year won't help , what might help is young players like Stafford and MacArthur reaching a stage where they start to pick up the slack.

This team needs better finish up front to carry the growing number of lunch pail players like Mair , Gaustad, Ryan, Kaleta etc.

It needs finishers not past failures.

[Taro T]

Failure won't make players better.

Do you think for example Gaustad will become a finisher next year because he has been a failure at it for 3 years ?

I don't.

Do you think Miller will steal games for the team in the fashion of a Hasek or Brodeur next year because he gave up a ton of soft ones in close games last year.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

I remember at this time last year the fans 'reasoning' that the team will be better without Breire and Drury.

The 'logic' of the day was..."we didn't win it with them so we'll probably be better without them".

 

No their failures of last year won't help , what might help is young players like Stafford and MacArthur reaching a stage where they start to pick up the slack.

This team needs better finish up front to carry the growing number of lunch pail players like Mair , Gaustad, Ryan, Kaleta etc.

It needs finishers not past failures.

It sure as heck wasn't on this board that you were reading that. Some were ticked about losing Briere, most were ticked about losing Drury, and nobody was happy both were gone. While there were several on this board that expected them to make the playoffs, NOBODY thought they were better on July 21, 2007 than they were on June 30, 2007.

 

I'll leave your other points for others to discuss.

[That Aud Smell]

I don't know what they practiced last off-season, but it also seemed like the way he played one-on-ones changed from the 2006-07 season. By the end of last year, despite looking a bit worn out, I thought he started to correct some of those changes and was handling one-on-ones better. Was it just my imagination or did anyone else notice this?

 

I thought so, too.

I remember thinking the same thing -- maybe he went back and spent some time with Mr. Miyagi.

[The Brain]

And workload definitely appears to be an issue for all goalies (not named Brodeur), so I would definitely like to see LaLame, er, LaLime (sorry, old habits die hard :o ) get 20-27 games this year.

Wrong that is just rhetoric put out by the Sabre's front office.

And it never ceases to amaze me how effective they are with what should be transparent.

(not just on this issue)

 

Workloads don't effect Lunquist , Nabakov, Brodeur, Luongo , Kiprusoff.

And many past goalies.

This is a BS excuse.

 

You would think if they agreed to make Miller the 4th highest paid goalie ( I believe that's right corect me if I'm wrong) they wouldn't need to make excuses for him as they are inking the new deal.

 

I never heard of those goalies I mentioned crying about playing too many games, and it hasn't effected their play either.

[apuszczalowski]

Wrong that is just rhetoric put out by the Sabre's front office.

And it never ceases to amaze me how effective they are with what should be transparent.

(not just on this issue)

 

Workloads don't effect Lunquist , Nabakov, Brodeur, Luongo , Kiprusoff.

And many past goalies.

This is a BS excuse.

 

You would think if they agreed to make Miller the 4th highest paid goalie ( I believe that's right corect me if I'm wrong) they wouldn't need to make excuses for him as they are inking the new deal.

 

I never heard of those goalies I mentioned crying about playing too many games, and it hasn't effected their play either.

Didn't Miller play more games then all of those goalies you named except 1 or 2?

 

Also didn't Keenan decide that he needed a solid backup to take the workload off Kipprusoff so he went out and brought Cujo back to the NHL?

 

Some players/goalies can handle and are better conditioned/built to play more games. And looking at some of those goalies, most of them will play alot of games, but will get breaks during long stretches, instead of playing 20-30 straight like Miller did at one point near the end of the season. Miller was in his 3rd full NHL season and was playing in more games then even Hasek played for the Sabres in a season

[Taro T]

Wrong that is just rhetoric put out by the Sabre's front office.

And it never ceases to amaze me how effective they are with what should be transparent.

(not just on this issue)

 

Workloads don't effect Lunquist , Nabakov, Brodeur, Luongo , Kiprusoff.

And many past goalies.

This is a BS excuse.

 

You would think if they agreed to make Miller the 4th highest paid goalie ( I believe that's right corect me if I'm wrong) they wouldn't need to make excuses for him as they are inking the new deal.

 

I never heard of those goalies I mentioned crying about playing too many games, and it hasn't effected their play either.

If workload doesn't effect the output, then why have only 6 teams won a Stanley Cup when playing their goalie 70 or more games in the regular season? Wouldn't coaches ride the better goalie all year long if there was no concern of fatigue down the stretch?

 

The only one on your list that I will agree with you about is Brodeur, and that dude is a different breed of cat. And he is getting to a stage in his career where it would probably make sense to lighten his load.

 

Kiprusoff has definitely tailed off with the greater workload, and it looked like Luongo had issues down the stretch as well. Lundqvist didn't have a particularily good playoff either. Which leaves Nabakov who didn't have a particularily stellar playoffs either until the marathon where the Snarks were eliminated.

 

And one other thing to consider in the workload argument, and claiming that workloads didn't effect any of those other goalies; guys like Lundqvist and Nabakov (who coincidentally were the only 2 of the 6 to get past the 1st round this year) faced 300 fewer shots this season than the other guys did. That's equivalent to playing ~10 fewer games.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Wrong that is just rhetoric put out by the Sabre's front office.

And it never ceases to amaze me how effective they are with what should be transparent.

(not just on this issue)

 

Workloads don't effect Lunquist , Nabakov, Brodeur, Luongo , Kiprusoff.

And many past goalies.

This is a BS excuse.

 

You would think if they agreed to make Miller the 4th highest paid goalie ( I believe that's right corect me if I'm wrong) they wouldn't need to make excuses for him as they are inking the new deal.

 

I never heard of those goalies I mentioned crying about playing too many games, and it hasn't effected their play either.

 

Kiprusoff's GAA has gone steadily up (2.07-2.46-2.69) and his Save Pct. steadily down (.923-.917-.906) as he has played more games, so it could be affecting him. And seeing as only one of those guys you mentioned has managed to win a Cup, perhaps Brodeur is the exception and it might be better to have your guy play closer to 65 games rather than 75. Patrick Roy played more than 65 games ONCE his whole career and never played more than 62 in a year he won the Cup. Every player is different, to determine a guy's playing time based on his salary and not what is best for the team is just dumb.

 

Either way, if they believe it is an issue with Miller, it's good that they are addressing it ... I don't care if he were THE highest paid goalie and made $11 million a year, it still might not make sense to play him 75 games. They say they want to keep him fresher, he says he wants to prepare better to handle the workload, let's see how it works out.

 

I'm not saying I have no problem with his play ... the bottom line is, if he doesn't get back to the form of his first two seasons as a starter, they are dead in the water. Regardless of everything else we argue about on here ... veteran No. 2 centers, physical defensmen, PP quarterbacks ... it's all white noise if Miller is not a Top 10 goalie. But he doesn't have to play every game either.

[apuszczalowski]

Now for the original topic by Deluca, I agree, the signing is good news for the team.

 

BUT, it is nothing to celebrate just yet. It isn't like he was a UFA that Darcy managed to pry away from another team. Re-signing him was something that should have been a given and there shouldn't have been any doubts it would get done.

 

And signing him to a reasonable long term deal is not going to change perceptions of the FO around the league. It ma be a start, but theres still a bit of a ways to go.

[The Brain]

Kiprusoff's GAA has gone steadily up (2.07-2.46-2.69) and his Save Pct. steadily down (.923-.917-.906) as he has played more games, so it could be affecting him.

He didn't just play 70+ last year.

Kiprusoff played 74 games in 05/06, 74 games in 06/07 and 76 games in 07/08.

So tell how his workload is effecting him.

What kind of goalie has he been ?

 

 

 

Every player is different, to determine a guy's playing time based on his salary and not what is best for the team is just dumb.

NO ONE EVERY MADE THIS COMMENT !

What is DUMB is debating an issue and complete losing track of the issue itself.

I never said his contract should determine the amount of games he plays.

I said that using the number of games MILLer played last year as an excuse for the year he had is BS.

Taro T said that workload effects ALL goalies and that was the issue we were discussing.

 

 

 

Either way, if they believe it is an issue with Miller, it's good that they are addressing it ... I don't care if he were THE highest paid goalie and made $11 million a year, it still might not make sense to play him 75 games. They say they want to keep him fresher, he says he wants to prepare better to handle the workload, let's see how it works out.

 

I'm not saying I have no problem with his play ... the bottom line is, if he doesn't get back to the form of his first two seasons as a starter, they are dead in the water. Regardless of everything else we argue about on here ... veteran No. 2 centers, physical defensmen, PP quarterbacks ... it's all white noise if Miller is not a Top 10 goalie. But he doesn't have to play every game either.

 

That's more of the same ...scroll up and see the comment above.

[The Brain]

Kiprusoff has definitely tailed off with the greater workload, and it looked like Luongo had issues down the stretch as well. Lundqvist didn't have a particularily good playoff either. Which leaves Nabakov who didn't have a particularily stellar playoffs either until the marathon where the Snarks were eliminated.

Wrong and a very weak argument !!!!

 

These goalies didn't enter the NHL last year and they didn't play 70+ ONCE in their careers .

[PASabreFan]

Wrong that is just rhetoric put out by the Sabre's front office.

And it never ceases to amaze me how effective they are with what should be transparent.

(not just on this issue)

 

Workloads don't effect Lunquist , Nabakov, Brodeur, Luongo , Kiprusoff.

And many past goalies.

This is a BS excuse.

 

You would think if they agreed to make Miller the 4th highest paid goalie ( I believe that's right corect me if I'm wrong) they wouldn't need to make excuses for him as they are inking the new deal.

 

I never heard of those goalies I mentioned crying about playing too many games, and it hasn't effected their play either.

 

Oh man you are in for a rough ride here. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down in a hurry. I wouldn't be surprised to see an appearance by SDS here momentarily. :) See how the board is already reflexively pushing you out, like the body works a splinter out of your hand?

 

Good luck, sir. I like your points so far.

 

And for the record, I predicted that the Sabres would be a 100-plus point team last season. :death:

[PASabreFan]

Wrong that is just rhetoric put out by the Sabre's front office.

And it never ceases to amaze me how effective they are with what should be transparent.

(not just on this issue)

 

Workloads don't effect Lunquist , Nabakov, Brodeur, Luongo , Kiprusoff.

And many past goalies.

This is a BS excuse.

 

You would think if they agreed to make Miller the 4th highest paid goalie ( I believe that's right corect me if I'm wrong) they wouldn't need to make excuses for him as they are inking the new deal.

 

I never heard of those goalies I mentioned crying about playing too many games, and it hasn't effected their play either.

 

Right. As soon as the word "young" emerged from Darcy's mouth, he knew he had to backtrack, thus he emphatically pointed out that the Sabres weren't paying for "potential" with Miller, when they certainly are.

[Taro T]

Wrong and a very weak argument !!!!

 

These goalies didn't enter the NHL last year and they didn't play 70+ ONCE in their careers .

Here are the #'s for Kiprusoff in Calgary.

 

'03-'04 38 games 1.69GAA 0.933 SV% 28 playoff games 1.85 0.928

'05-'06 74 2.07 0.923 7 2.24 0.921

'06-'07 74 2.46 0.917 6 2.81 0.929

'07-'08 76 2.69 0.906 7 3.21 0.908

 

Kiprusoff's numbers have definitely had a downward trend as he continues to pile 70+ game seasons onto his resume. And Nabakov and Miller HAVE only played 70 regular season games ONCE in their careers. :doh:

 

And FTR, I specifically stated in the original post of which you took so much issue that Brodeur has not had fatigue issues through the bulk of his career. I also notice you conveniently ignored my questions to you.

[The Brain]

Didn't Miller play more games then all of those goalies you named except 1 or 2?

 

Also didn't Keenan decide that he needed a solid backup to take the workload off Kipprusoff so he went out and brought Cujo back to the NHL?

 

Some players/goalies can handle and are better conditioned/built to play more games. And looking at some of those goalies, most of them will play alot of games, but will get breaks during long stretches, instead of playing 20-30 straight like Miller did at one point near the end of the season. Miller was in his 3rd full NHL season and was playing in more games then even Hasek played for the Sabres in a season

Was the 2007-2008 innaugral season for the NHL ?

NO

 

Did I say those goalies played more games that Miller last year ?

NO

 

So what is your point , is there one ?

 

 

 

Also didn't Keenan decide that he needed a solid backup to take the workload off Kipprusoff so he went out and brought Cujo back to the NHL?

 

What ?????

Didn't they have a backup for Kirprosoft prior to Keenan bringing in Cujo ?

Answer :Yes

And did Kiprusoff play less games under Keenan when they brought in Cujo?

Answer: No

If Cujo was solid why is he now in Toronto ?

Answer: you tell me

You claim (fabricate is a better word) that they brought Cujo in to take the workload of Kiprusoff?

How many games did Cujo play for Calgary ???

Answer: CUJO PLAYED 2 GAMES FOR CALGARY

 

:oops:

[BetweenThePipes00]

He didn't just play 70+ last year.

Kiprusoff played 74 games in 05/06, 74 games in 06/07 and 76 games in 07/08.

So tell how his workload is effecting him.

What kind of goalie has he been ?

Well, he is apparently getting worse ... he certainly didn't play like a top 5 goalie last season when his numbers were the same as Miller's. Perhaps the workload might have something to do with that, that's all I was saying. Just because he had one great season playing 70+ games doesn't mean it NEVER effects him, something sure seems to have changed for the guy.

 

NO ONE EVERY MADE THIS COMMENT !

What is DUMB is debating an issue and complete losing track of the issue itself.

I never said his contract should determine the amount of games he plays.

I said that using the number of games MILLer played last year as an excuse for the year he had is BS.

Taro T said that workload effects ALL goalies and that was the issue we were discussing.

OK, easy boy ... If I inferrered something incorrectly in your post about how he should handle the workload because of his salary, I take it back ... reading it again, I can see where I took it wrong. My bad. I love to argue and when reading a bunch of posts I sometimes jump too fast ... but then you seem to have arrived looking for a fight so ... I'm sure we will get along well ;)

 

That's more of the same ...scroll up and see the comment above.

 

No, it's really not ... I was not trying to dispute anything you were saying with my last statement about Miller ... It was just my opinion ... perhaps it was out of place, but I was just saying the proof will be in the pudding. If the guy plays like he can, the front office can make all the excuses they want as far as i am concerned ... and if he doesn't, nothing they say will change the fact that they bet on the wrong guy.

[FogBat]

Oh man you are in for a rough ride here. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down in a hurry. I wouldn't be surprised to see an appearance by SDS here momentarily. :) See how the board is already reflexively pushing you out, like the body works a splinter out of your hand?

 

Good luck, sir. I like your points so far.

 

And for the record, I predicted that the Sabres would be a 100-plus point team last season. :death:

PA, you're just the kind of guy who needed to say the right thing at the right time. Good job! :thumbsup:

 

Brain, for a noob, you are ruffling way too many feathers way too soon. You are also going way beyond cocky while presenting some (but not all) picayune arguments. Cool your jets, learn the ropes around here, and you'll do fine. We all have our quirks, and I am no exception to this.

 

Are we cool on this?

[That Aud Smell]

Brain, for a noob,

I prefer FNG ("fenn-gee").

[apuszczalowski]

I prefer FNG ("fenn-gee").

He's just another Troll who is coming over here to try and ruffle everyone's feathers

 

He hasn't even been here a day yet and he is already calling other posters idiots for not agreeing with him